New CP Layout - Feedback

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New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby da4nex » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:48 pm

Just wanted to share my thoughts about the new layout at CP, I hope it is taken as constructive criticism.

The biggest improvement to the course, I think, is that there is much more variety to the holes, and most of them now have some character that the old layout was perceived to be lacking. Unfortunately, the flow of the course – the excessive walking distances between the basket and next teepad on quite a few of the holes – is a considerable offset to these improvements, in my opinion. However, I think that a big chunk of this problem could be remedied by making the following changes:

Scrap holes 6 and 7. They are both the type of holes that seemed to earn the original CP a lot of its negative feedback: nothing more than long, open holes with some elevation changes. (Okay, hole 7 does have the creek behind it on the approach, that does hold some appeal.) But my hunch is that anyone who has played these holes would not mourn their demise.

To replace them, first create a new hole 6 from somewhere around 5’s basket to somewhere in the vicinity of 8’s teepad (basket perhaps near current 7’s teepad?). This hole does have the potential to be nothing more than one of those long open holes with an elevation change, but at least now you’ve condensed two consecutive holes like this into one. Second, create another new hole between what is currently 8 and 9 (old 5’s fairway).

By doing this, I think the flow of the course improves dramatically. Two of these long idle hikes are now transformed into walks well spent by chucking a disc to get to the next hole. There is still the walk from 3 to 4 that is pretty extreme, but I’m not sure the distance and/or layout would accommodate another hole here. But this stretch could be another option for a replacement hole if one of the proposals I mention isn’t workable.

Admittedly, I contributed zero to the actual work to get the course renovated, so these suggestions are merely suggestions. Not that I’m unwilling to help out going forward, but just that I wasn’t involved in the project so I realize that I don’t have a lot of ground to criticize the finished product.

Thanks and best of luck,
Alan
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Re: New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby VERMIN » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:34 pm

First of all THANK YOU TO ALL THAT HELPED WITH THE COURSE.

I like the new layout even though it was a little weird playing Central backwards. The basket placements added a lot of character. I played the blues and the long walks to a couple of holes were a bit of a drag but what the heck, I need the excercise. As usual, Central would be even better with concrete pads but then again it is alot of time and money to build the concrete pads. My only thought is how long will the fence around the retaining pond hold up with Disc Golfers climbing on it to retrieve a disc? I wonder if some type of gate could be added later on if those holes remain there.

Once again BIG THANKS to all of those that helped.
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Re: New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby da4nex » Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:01 pm

But of course, Vermin. Apologies if my gratitude for all of the work done was not prominent enough in my critique.
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Re: New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby dandaman » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:12 pm

The course is much approved! My feedback can be found on dgcoursereview.
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Re: New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby Corndawg13 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:16 am

Thank you a lot for the feedback guys, and the gratitude. These are good points. The only bad thing about the CP Redesign was the limitations given from the Park. We could not use certain areas, and could not interfere with the walking paths, and were asked to get the course away from the biking trails. This was our 3rd attempt at a good design and it has the "worst" flow. The old BMX track area was off limits, old 5's fairway by the maintenance shed was off-limits, the power cut between holes 2 and 3 was also off-limits. We had to fight to keep current holes 12 and 13 as well, trust me, it was not easy. :)

Scrapping or drastically changing holes is really not an option anymore and the course will probably stay as it is. We have heard all feedback and ideas to change or alter holes, but the big picture is to save money for the new course in south Forsyth at Chattahoochee Pointe Park. The extra nine baskets will be used to cut costs on the new course. The course needed to get away from the other activities at the park for safety, it needed some character and it needed to be more enjoyable for all skill levels. The county was considering pulling the course all together two weeks before the club stepped in.

Again, thank you very much for the feedback and I am thrilled you guys enjoy it and see that we tried to make every hole stand out in it's own right. Small tweaks like basket locations, teepad locations and other things of that nature are always welcomed. We are considering changing 14, but adding a drop zone is more likely. I do agree on hole 8 blue with it's current distance. The initial thought was to cut into the hill like the Red pad, and that is still in the plans. We did just send the prints for the new teesigns though, so distances would need to remain similar. On 18, the alternate basket is in the area you guys are referring to, we hope to move the baskets in a few weeks. Hole 6 will get better in time when the trees come into play.

As soon as we get the new course teepad signs, we will create the official new course page on dgcoursereview.com and I'll request all other course pages be removed (sorry Dandaman).
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Re: New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby Corndawg13 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:30 am

And...........we do have permission from the Park to do concrete teepads, with certain guidelines. However, as of now, funding falls on the club and we don't have the money at this time.

A lot of times my responses are judged as harsh or that I'm not open to feedback and criticism, and that could not be farther from reality. I deeply appreciate any and all feedback and suggestions on Central Park. We should all play a round together sometime, talking is great and welcomed, but playing a round with someone and seeing their criticism live is a more useful tool in my opinion.
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Re: New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby Funky Bobby J » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:56 am

I am still willing to come work on 16. I think that if you take out a few bundles of those tress on the left and put the basket back on the peninsula - you could have a great par 4 or 5 hole that requires great positional play and a lot of risk/reward. Cool thing is that when Dave and I looked at it - it will not require much work. Take a look at it when you head out there. Regardless of whether you move the basket - a left-hand lane is a good idea for options/risk reward (IMO).

I also would like your okay to cut down the little maple (I think) right on the turn on old 4 on the right side of the fairway. It has grown so much out over the fairway in the last couple of years that it really needs to come out and maybe the little pine right behind it. Hole just needs to be cleaned up a bit to return the hole to its former glory. I do not want to cut anything without your agreement.

The other hole that I am worried about is 18. Right now, the marsh is a landing area for a lot of players' drives. It might be nice to look and see how we might change that hole as it is doubtful that we are going to dig a drainage ditch all of the way to the creek. Maybe we could look at something like tee pads near old G's original basket to the alt position for old F near the fence.

14 (I think) - the one that plays down the old mountain bike path with drainage area on left and OB on right. I think that all of the brush on the right needs to be completely cleaned or the hole shortened. It is not just players like you and me out there. Central sees lots of casual players. That hole is really terrible for them. It is much too long and narrow with severe punishment on both sides for casual players. Put the Blue pad at the red and move the red pad up.

My final observation is that the blue pad for 4 is in a terrible place between those trees. Moving the pad forward 10 feet or so will not detract from the hole, and the area is flatter and no one has to worry about smashing their hand into a tree.

Have a chainsaw and two teenagers that I can get to help me on old 4 and new 16. Just let me know. You know I am not whining and I really appreciate what you have done - just my input.

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Re: New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby Corndawg13 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:07 am

Of course I know FBJ and thank you. I've been really busy trying to move from Gwinnett back to Forsyth lately. We are under contract to sell ours now and also under contract to buy a new home in Bridgetowne. My brother and his family are in town from Portland, OR starting today and going to next weekend as well. Let me finalize their plans and see what days work best for another work day.

Have you played the new 18 blue teepad? (Still needs work) We stretched it out some. The marsh area still remains an uncertainty.

I have not been out there in 2-3 weeks, but I'm fine with whatever you and Dave think should or could be done as long as it is not too drastic. Whatever needs to be decided on should be soon. It is not a big deal to change one hole up some, we would just have to pay and order a new sign for that particular hole.
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Re: New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby mrpbody33 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:22 pm

This was originally posted to the group on FB but I figured I would post it here as well for further debate. Please enjoy....

So here are my thoughts on the new layout. Andrew T. Lofstrand and I played the blue pads a couple weeks back and to be honest we thought some of the holes could be tweaked a little. First of all a major concern is there is a ton of walking versus the hole distance. I mapped it out we walk roughly 2.6 miles but the course itself is just over 6000' feet. Not a good ratio. Maybe you could squeeze in two more holes and come up with a 20-hole layout. Lofstrand might have more ideas so maybe hit him up as well if you want more input.

Let's start out with the good. This layout is far better than the previous. The original 18 was lengthy and had a few 3.5's that really didn't make it fun. The new layout is an improvement. You have a good starting and ending location. The last three holes are great (17 could use some work but we will get to that). Holes 1, 3, 7 and 11 are some good holes.

Now for the stuff that could be tweaked. Keep in mind some of this is minor changes and others are larger ideas. Feel free to pick and choose what you would consider. Hole 2's pad was not lined up with fairway so that was a little weird but I felt you could have found another tee box area closer to hole 1's basket that could be better. But maybe just tweaking the pad a little would improve it. The walk to hole 4 is long and I think you would be better served with less of a blind shot. I know a big focus was to move the course away from the pedestrian walkway but not the course is impacting the mountain biking trails. And trust me no one wants to take a Firebird to the face when someone blindly throws from the blue pad on 4. Shorten up the walk and put the tee box about halfway up the path you already have. Make it uphill shot from a tunnel. The only people you would be worrying about are potentially the golfers on hole 15's pad.

Hole 5 is a great hole and a good pin position. Just put some chicken wire on the bottom of the fence line near the basket to avoid discs skipping underneath. Lofstrand had one from about 20' feet that just skipped under but otherwise it would have been right there. Hole 6 is a great par four but I don't think you need to tee off from the other side of the water for that one. Keep the tee box on the other side of the creek away from the mountain bikers and maybe just move it off to side if you really want to keep the same distance. Throwing out of that tunnel really don't add any difficulty to the shot.

Hole 8 at the blue pad is a tweener hole. Most guys aren't going to have the arm to make it the whole way to basket. Plus it isn't long enough away that they will bogey it with a bad drive. Move the tee box back and make another easier par 4 or combine it with the red pad and have an awesome birdie chance hole.

Holes 9 and 10 have never been my favorite but right now I would say they just need to be cleaned up a bit. I always preferred 9's pin up on the hill so it made a great RHFH/LFBH shot.

Holes 12 and 13 are fine. I liked the lower pad for hole 12 more but the elevated pad is fine. The fact you have to walk backwards here to get from 12's basket to 13's pad is a potential backup issue. Crazy idea here…combine both holes. Keep the elevate pad but move the pin short of where 13's is currently. Now where do we put 13 then? Make a hole through the old BMX area towards 14's current pad. Just looking for something like a 280'' uphill shot nothing crazy but something that could be birdied if executed right.

Hole 14. I knew you were waiting for this one. Andrew and I spent some time throwing several different shot at this one. The truth is throwing uphill with OB one both sides is not fun especially when your fairway is only about 20' wide in some places. New 13's basket would be placed where 14's pad is currently. Move 14's tee box up about 80 feet in the fairway. Then push the basket back as well. I think this would help to avoid a lot of shots fading off into the fences in area. There is way too much risk and not enough reward on current set up of this hole. Pushing it back would make it fairer. The best way to see how it stacks up is to run some singles events and run the stats on it.

Hole 15 is good but it just needs to be moved to the old pad position if you move the tee box for 4. It is really the same shot either way. Hole 17 you should just combine the tee box with the red pad again. The blue pad is just stupid close to the fence and not really fair to the LFBH thrower. Just something away from that fence.

Hole 18. Don't you touch that hole! Seriously a great finishing hole. Add a second basket to the right and little longer of the current basket and you are golden. I think statistically this one should come out to be a real fair hole.

Now where to add some holes and make this thing a 20-hole layout. You could easily put on the access road between the current 2 and 3. Exit the woods from hole 2 and head left. Etch out a spot and have straight slightly uphill shot toward where the old basket once was. The other new hole could happen between one of two places. Between current 7 and 8 or between 8 and 9. If you move the tee box on hole 8 to the current red pad you would have plenty of room to create a drastic uphill shot from there.

In summary I apologize for the wall of text I just posted. Again feel free to pick and choose from what I have suggested. Central Park is 50 miles from my house so I usually only play it once a year. Don't fall into the trap of thinking people with lesser skill will play the red pads. That usually never happens. Build a fun and fair course and you will build a good sized club in no time.
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Re: New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby Phoenix » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:20 pm

There is some excellent feedback here and I think its a real testament to the work that has already gone into redesign. It has certainly increased my enthusiasm for Central as it is now a course I'm itching to play far more often. Thank you to those who have re-energized Central.

I think most of the thoughts I had have been covered, primarily the walk to blue 4 seemed a bit long for what the hole contributes. Hole 8 has one of the best throws on the course from the red tee, the blue tee moving up to join it would be a neat change. Same situation for blue 17, it can be tough as it is and the red tee would be great for both. I've never been fond of 9 and 10 but they do fit in a bit more with this layout.

That being said, Holes 1 & 3 are incredible. I liked 5 & 7 as they offer challenging but fair conditions. I thought 16 was a great inclusion and 18 an excellent finish.
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Re: New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:02 pm

Glad you like it!
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Re: New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby RAM » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:44 am

I played the new layout for the first time on Saturday and really enjoyed it. I agree with most previous posters on the longer walks (but also agree I could use the exercise) and that something should be done for hole 14. Other than that, I think the only additional thing I can think of that has not been mentioned was the amount of time easily spent in the SHADE! The old layout did not seem to me to let you spend as much time either under the shade, or near it enough on those hot summer days. I found myself refreshed at how cool we stayed throughout the round by just playing the course. Not sure if that was intentional, but I am really grateful for it anyway.

Favorite holes are 3 and 18. Least liked would be 14 and 17 (only due to the blue pad- I really like 17's fairway in general).

*note: I have logged 0 volunteer hours and donated $0 to this course, so my criticisms are to a minimum.

THANKS TO ALL WHO'S EFFORTS HAVE KEPT THIS COURSE ALIVE!!!
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Re: New CP Layout - Feedback

Postby Corndawg13 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:17 pm

Glad you enjoyed it RAM. Shade was definitely a key component for the re-design. We moved 17 Red up but Blue will stay the same. It's similar to old hole 2 but plays uphill a tad. 17 just needs work and we have a few guys that help out as well as two community service workers that will start soon. CP is a work in progress and any feedback is always welcomed.
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