New Wills?

[Bootsie]

Before Jim Warner passed one of his goals was to try to get the park to put in a new course that wouldn't interfere with any other sporting activity or walking paths. I was just wanting to know if there was any chance of this to happen and if so what would need to be done. I would love to contribute and do all that I can but I know my voice wouldn't make a difference. So my question is also that whoever Jim was talking with can that person be contacted and a new proposal be presented?

[Big Red]

The bottom line is the baskets at Wills need to be pulled an either a new course built at the same park or moved to a new park. I love Wills as much as anyone and it was my first course too but this is the only thing that makes sense.

[ryanwatson]

pull the baskets at wills? what? are u crazy? that makes no sence at all. i know uyou might have to wait to take some shots but at least u have the course to play. u know how many people have started playing golf just by seeing what we do out there. i agree that it is crowded but....welcome to alpharetta. there are plenty of times that u can go to the park and be the only person in the whole park.

[Big Red]

pull the baskets at wills? what? are u crazy? that makes no sence at all. i know uyou might have to wait to take some shots but at least u have the course to play. u know how many people have started playing golf just by seeing what we do out there. i agree that it is crowded but....welcome to alpharetta. there are plenty of times that u can go to the park and be the only person in the whole park.

This attitude I think is one the biggest problems holding disc golf back. For whatever reason the majority of disc golfers are sentimental hoarders by nature. Stock is taken in the accumulation of poorly designed or outdated and run-down disc golf courses in such a dogmatic and vehement fashion that it can only be compared to religious fanaticism. The notion of “at least we have a course to play” becomes canonical among this “cult” to the point where all logic is lost in the lust for quantity over quality. The simple fact is there are enough disc golf courses out there these days that new ones going in need to be well designed and old ones need to be renovated or moved to produce a better product. The current “faith” is damaging to the game because there is no quality control. The baskets from Wills could be renovated and moved to build a better, modern course. That would make “sence.”

[mrpbody33]

I agree with Aaron. Wills park was one of the first courses I started playing at but now I usually don't go there unless it is the dead of winter and I know there isn't going to be any foot traffic. I have come too close to hitting people as they fly around a corner on a bike. Those Mach 2's could be put to much better use somewhere else. I say move them down to Perkerson!

Beware the Basket Guerrilla!

[maximus]

Wills has made a lot of people become disc golfers over the years, including myself and my brother. We started back in the late '80s with an Aviar and a Roc (bought our discs from a guy in a grey? minivan) playing speed golf, and finishing the round in about 30mins. The course has moved and changed so many times over the years with new buildings, fields, courts, and walking paths, that it is NOT the same anymore. I am amazed at how many people, from barneys to World Champions, still play the course and how much traffic it brings to the park, but somehow continues to be shuffled aside for something else.

Even though I don't want to say it or agree with Aaron, since I like playing there, there is too much going on in Wills Park for that course to stay there much longer. I see the end of the course even sooner with just one notable accident like a disc to the head of a kid and the inevitable lawsuit with todays society.

[kade.erp]

discs hit kids, parents, babies and little puppies every day out there. been going on for years. whats tha big deal.

[mrpbody33]

discs hit kids, parents, babies and little puppies every day out there.

That is exactly my point. Good course design shouldn't impact other amenities of the park and vice versa. I am not familiar with the long history of Wills park but I guess that the course was put in way before the walking paths were. Perhaps they were put in when the most of the people playing out there were still throwing lids and not the low profile stuff we have now.

If you are worried about losing a disc golf course on the Northside then perhaps look at moving those baskets to one of the new Roswell parks that will be built. Hell maybe there is another park in Alpharetta right now that would be more suited to course. I don't know because I don't live on that side of town.

I just think that it would be better if we decided that having a disc golf course at Wills park is not safe anymore for those individuals that would like to use the walking paths rather than having the course pulled permanently because someone's kid got struck with a disc. Then you will find it hard to put a disc golf course anywhere in Alpharetta if that happens.

[richardhead]

The very first time I played disc golf was at Wills back in 1990-91. From what I remember, the course was awesome. At that time the park had not grown on top of the disc golf course. My dad and I played for several years and then stopped all together. When I started playing disc golf again in late 2005 I visited Wills. To this day, that has been the only time I've played it since picking the game up again. I agree that there could be some safety hazards, but I also think that the people who frequent this course know that already. They still play because they are patient enough to wait for foot traffic to move or to create newer less obstructive tees to play from. If I lived closer to Wills, I would play the course. For no other reason than the nostalgic value it brings to my disc golf experience. There's something to be said for old school courses and there value in the community. They humble you and make you realize how far this sport is come and where it came from. In my opinion, pulling Wills would be like pulling Redan or Timmons. So for now, play at your own risk and be careful and receptive to other park patrons.

[Big Red]

The very first time I played disc golf was at Wills back in 1990-91. From what I remember, the course was awesome. At that time the park had not grown on top of the disc golf course. My dad and I played for several years and then stopped all together. When I started playing disc golf again in late 2005 I visited Wills. To this day, that has been the only time I've played it since picking the game up again. I agree that there could be some safety hazards, but I also think that the people who frequent this course know that already. They still play because they are patient enough to wait for foot traffic to move or to create newer less obstructive tees to play from. If I lived closer to Wills, I would play the course. For no other reason than the nostalgic value it brings to my disc golf experience. There's something to be said for old school courses and there value in the community. They humble you and make you realize how far this sport is come and where it came from. In my opinion, pulling Wills would be like pulling Redan or Timmons. So for now, play at your own risk and be careful and receptive to other park patrons.

As I have said before Wills was the first course for most of us. It was my first course back in 1999 well before any walking paths existed. I like it just as much as anyone else but can you honestly say those baskets are being used the best they could be right now? It is sad how some things change for the worst and how they can never be gotten back. I personally always loved going to Fulton County Stadium to see a braves game and taking in all the history that had occured there but it was torn down for some unknown reason. I see Wills as being the same thing except with Wills the baskets can be used to carry on and build something better. I don't see the comparison between Redan and Timmons as both of those courses combined don't equal the history of Wills and neither of them have been encroached on the way Wills has; however, if a walking path was paved through either one I would fully support either of them being pulled as well. I think a lot of people like the idea of knowing that Wills is there in case they wanted to go play it again but really have no desire to play it with any vague regularity. I understand that but I think there is a better way.

[Can't Hit Open Putts]

Wills was not the first course I played but it is the only one left of the 3 that were in the ground 20+ years ago. I haven't lived in the area for 17 years but probably have logged more hours at Wills than any other course. I would not like to see it get pulled. It is the granddaddy of all ATL courses. It is need of a redesign thats all. Before any traditionalist start to complain, Wills has been altered so many times in the past, so whats one more change? Holes that got to go to make it a more playable and safe course are #1, #12, #15,and #16 (sorry, its the most infringed upon hole). My opinion as an old time Wills Dog.

Who lives in the area thats willing to head it up? The ADGO can always provide Alpharetta P&R with our demographics and, as usual, we can supply the labor. All we need is permission to change it.

[kade.erp]

I agree that there could be some safety hazards, but I also think that the people who frequent this course know that already. They still play because they are patient enough to wait for foot traffic to move or to create newer less obstructive tees to play from. If I lived closer to Wills, I would play the course. For no other reason than the nostalgic value it brings to my disc golf experience. There's something to be said for old school courses and there value in the community.

That sums it all up.

[kade.erp]

Holes that got to go to make it a more playable and safe course are #1, #12, #15,and #16 (sorry, its the most infringed upon hole). My opinion as an old time Wills Dog.

Yes this is very true!

[Big Red]

Wills was not the first course I played but it is the only one left of the 3 that were in the ground 20+ years ago. I haven't lived in the area for 17 years but probably have logged more hours at Wills than any other course. I would not like to see it get pulled. It is the granddaddy of all ATL courses. It is need of a redesign thats all. Before any traditionalist start to complain, Wills has been altered so many times in the past, so whats one more change? Holes that got to go to make it a more playable and safe course are #1, #12, #15,and #16 (sorry, its the most infringed upon hole). My opinion as an old time Wills Dog.

Who lives in the area thats willing to head it up? The ADGO can always provide Alpharetta P&R with our demographics and, as usual, we can supply the labor. All we need is permission to change it.

I belive Rand told me he was working on this at one time. You may want to get with him.

[ryanwatson]

The very first time I played disc golf was at Wills back in 1990-91. From what I remember, the course was awesome. At that time the park had not grown on top of the disc golf course. My dad and I played for several years and then stopped all together. When I started playing disc golf again in late 2005 I visited Wills. To this day, that has been the only time I've played it since picking the game up again. I agree that there could be some safety hazards, but I also think that the people who frequent this course know that already. They still play because they are patient enough to wait for foot traffic to move or to create newer less obstructive tees to play from. If I lived closer to Wills, I would play the course. For no other reason than the nostalgic value it brings to my disc golf experience. There's something to be said for old school courses and there value in the community. They humble you and make you realize how far this sport is come and where it came from. In my opinion, pulling Wills would be like pulling Redan or Timmons. So for now, play at your own risk and be careful and receptive to other park patrons.

WORD

[ryanwatson]

The very first time I played disc golf was at Wills back in 1990-91. From what I remember, the course was awesome. At that time the park had not grown on top of the disc golf course. My dad and I played for several years and then stopped all together. When I started playing disc golf again in late 2005 I visited Wills. To this day, that has been the only time I've played it since picking the game up again. I agree that there could be some safety hazards, but I also think that the people who frequent this course know that already. They still play because they are patient enough to wait for foot traffic to move or to create newer less obstructive tees to play from. If I lived closer to Wills, I would play the course. For no other reason than the nostalgic value it brings to my disc golf experience. There's something to be said for old school courses and there value in the community. They humble you and make you realize how far this sport is come and where it came from. In my opinion, pulling Wills would be like pulling Redan or Timmons. So for now, play at your own risk and be careful and receptive to other park patrons.

As I have said before Wills was the first course for most of us. It was my first course back in 1999 well before any walking paths existed. I like it just as much as anyone else but can you honestly say those baskets are being used the best they could be right now? It is sad how some things change for the worst and how they can never be gotten back. I personally always loved going to Fulton County Stadium to see a braves game and taking in all the history that had occured there but it was torn down for some unknown reason. I see Wills as being the same thing except with Wills the baskets can be used to carry on and build something better. I don't see the comparison between Redan and Timmons as both of those courses combined don't equal the history of Wills and neither of them have been encroached on the way Wills has; however, if a walking path was paved through either one I would fully support either of them being pulled as well. I think a lot of people like the idea of knowing that Wills is there in case they wanted to go play it again but really have no desire to play it with any vague regularity. I understand that but I think there is a better way.

OK.... now honestly if u know will and want to pull those baskets and put them somewhere else. do u really think it would be worth it those baskets have been there since day one (1983) some of them are held together with twist ties and u want to move those to a NEW course that just doesnt seem right. now dont get me wrong if they were some brand new baskets going to waste cause nobod would play the coures due to above statements then i would be all for it. but come on leave the classics the way they are!!!!!!

[grease]

Very good point Ryan. I haven't played Wills in nearly two years only because I
don't work near there anymore. Prior to that, I was there as much as possible.
I did have a problem playing dubs due to the traffic/danger issue. Hole 16
was a royal pain to play during football season. Either way, I have always had the
utmost respect for Wills and it's players. For some reason, that course has spawned
the best players in GA. Before Jim died, he was working on holes in the large wedge
of woods to the left of the last hole before you make the long walk by the ball fields(
can't remember the number). There is a big wedge of land there that could be used,
but I don't know if it would remedy all of the problems adding a few holes over there.
This deserves another look.

[Big Red]

The very first time I played disc golf was at Wills back in 1990-91. From what I remember, the course was awesome. At that time the park had not grown on top of the disc golf course. My dad and I played for several years and then stopped all together. When I started playing disc golf again in late 2005 I visited Wills. To this day, that has been the only time I've played it since picking the game up again. I agree that there could be some safety hazards, but I also think that the people who frequent this course know that already. They still play because they are patient enough to wait for foot traffic to move or to create newer less obstructive tees to play from. If I lived closer to Wills, I would play the course. For no other reason than the nostalgic value it brings to my disc golf experience. There's something to be said for old school courses and there value in the community. They humble you and make you realize how far this sport is come and where it came from. In my opinion, pulling Wills would be like pulling Redan or Timmons. So for now, play at your own risk and be careful and receptive to other park patrons.

As I have said before Wills was the first course for most of us. It was my first course back in 1999 well before any walking paths existed. I like it just as much as anyone else but can you honestly say those baskets are being used the best they could be right now? It is sad how some things change for the worst and how they can never be gotten back. I personally always loved going to Fulton County Stadium to see a braves game and taking in all the history that had occured there but it was torn down for some unknown reason. I see Wills as being the same thing except with Wills the baskets can be used to carry on and build something better. I don't see the comparison between Redan and Timmons as both of those courses combined don't equal the history of Wills and neither of them have been encroached on the way Wills has; however, if a walking path was paved through either one I would fully support either of them being pulled as well. I think a lot of people like the idea of knowing that Wills is there in case they wanted to go play it again but really have no desire to play it with any vague regularity. I understand that but I think there is a better way.

OK.... now honestly if u know will and want to pull those baskets and put them somewhere else. do u really think it would be worth it those baskets have been there since day one (1983) some of them are held together with twist ties and u want to move those to a NEW course that just doesnt seem right. now dont get me wrong if they were some brand new baskets going to waste cause nobod would play the coures due to above statements then i would be all for it. but come on leave the classics the way they are!!!!!!

The course didn't go in in 1983. If you read my original post I mentioned that the baskets need to be refurbished and moved.

[joyaman]

This thread could go on forever. It seems that there a two camps here that both have great respect for what Wills has meant to the Atlanta disc golf community. Let's build on that and go from there.

Those of us who still play regularly at Wills (since the 80's for me) and deal the all of the above-mentioned issues do not wish to see the course go away. Others who have left Wills for a variety of reasons (new, closer courses, less contention, etc...) would most likely play it occasionally if it is reworked away from the walking path and spectator areas. Let's put our collective energies and focus there.

I understand the frustration and sense of resignation that many feel when this subject has been mentioned in the past. Many years of disccussion and lobbying have not resulted the desired outcome. These are not, however, valid reasons for giving up the effort now and "punting" Wills or its relic-class baskets to another location. There was lots of similar moaning, groaning and resignation regarding the lack of concrete pads at Sequoyah and ERP before folks like Jay Voss and Jason Bradshaw stepped up to make these projects happen. We need a similar effort to restore the luster and playability to Wills.

I know that Rand, Keith and others are still working toward these ends. It's not the intention here to step on anyone's toes, but rather to rally support behind these efforts. The Alpharetta Arboretum, who successfully completed community garden and tree identification projects recently at Wills, has expressed interest in installing concrete tee pads at the park (erosion control, protection of tree roots, etc...). Let's pool our resources and leverage their support to get pads built in the right places (most existing holes + relocated holes).

Those interested in joining this effort, please send me a PM and I'll do my best to get the various parties together to start building a consensus and a plan to get this done.

Sincerely,

Chris Foley #1423

[CorneliousVanderbildt]

pull the baskets at wills? what? are u crazy? that makes no sence at all. i know uyou might have to wait to take some shots but at least u have the course to play. u know how many people have started playing golf just by seeing what we do out there. i agree that it is crowded but....welcome to alpharetta. there are plenty of times that u can go to the park and be the only person in the whole park.

This attitude I think is one the biggest problems holding disc golf back. For whatever reason the majority of disc golfers are sentimental hoarders by nature. Stock is taken in the accumulation of poorly designed or outdated and run-down disc golf courses in such a dogmatic and vehement fashion that it can only be compared to religious fanaticism. The notion of “at least we have a course to play” becomes canonical among this “cult” to the point where all logic is lost in the lust for quantity over quality. The simple fact is there are enough disc golf courses out there these days that new ones going in need to be well designed and old ones need to be renovated or moved to produce a better product. The current “faith” is damaging to the game because there is no quality control. The baskets from Wills could be renovated and moved to build a better, modern course. That would make “sence.”

What are you doing about it?

[richardhead]

Do you even exist anymore? Please leave.

[CorneliousVanderbildt]

Do you ever stop whining or telling shitty jokes? Please stop.

[richardhead]

I don't whine and I happen to think my jokes are hilarious. Have a nice day Mrs. Voss.

[CorneliousVanderbildt]

I've heard they get around 60 players for dubs at riverview, but they are paying LESS than $5. If i draw odd man at Redan on a Tuesday with less than 10 people, i would make more than i would for winning dubs at riverview even if there are 90 people there

So what you're saying is.........you love the cack?

Yes, this is hilarious, if you are 6 years old. I hope you have a good day too, Mr Trite.

[richardhead]

Sick burn on me.

[Ghostinthemachine]

Way to go, Chris!

That's the spirit! Grab the reins and form a LOCAL club to improve Wills. Start with a core group of five. Identify the local political group responsible for the park. Come up a cool name to rally around like Warner's Willy Weasels or some such and go for it. Give the powers that be choices like 1. fix the existing 2. fix and move the existing 3. remove it or whatever else.

Finally, keep it simple and keep it to yourselves. If you stick on this discussion board, than half the posters will agree and the other half will not. What's the point in creating more headaches for yourselves.

Step One - Five guys
Step Two - Identify political groups
Step Three - Cool name
Step Four - Submit proposal to political groups

I could do this four step process in about two weeks, probably less. Can you?

Kevin Misiak
SSS#1

[Ghostinthemachine]

Wait for it . . .

[djester]

Way to go, Chris!

That's the spirit! Grab the reins and form a LOCAL club to improve Wills. Start with a core group of five. Identify the local political group responsible for the park. Come up a cool name to rally around like Warner's Willy Weasels or some such and go for it. Give the powers that be choices like 1. fix the existing 2. fix and move the existing 3. remove it or whatever else.

Finally, keep it simple and keep it to yourselves. If you stick on this discussion board, than half the posters will agree and the other half will not. What's the point in creating more headaches for yourselves.

Step One - Five guys
Step Two - Identify political groups
Step Three - Cool name
Step Four - Submit proposal to political groups

I could do this four step process in about two weeks, probably less. Can you?

Kevin Misiak
SSS#1

Sounds like something you might catch while staying at the Viking Inn with Vern
....

[mr.disc]

slam confirmation aquired.

[joyaman]

Way to go, Chris!

That's the spirit! Grab the reins and form a LOCAL club to improve Wills. Start with a core group of five. Identify the local political group responsible for the park. Come up a cool name to rally around like Warner's Willy Weasels or some such and go for it. Give the powers that be choices like 1. fix the existing 2. fix and move the existing 3. remove it or whatever else.

Finally, keep it simple and keep it to yourselves. If you stick on this discussion board, than half the posters will agree and the other half will not. What's the point in creating more headaches for yourselves.

Step One - Five guys
Step Two - Identify political groups
Step Three - Cool name
Step Four - Submit proposal to political groups

I could do this four step process in about two weeks, probably less. Can you?

Kevin Misiak
SSS#1

Kevin:

Still working on the cool name while geting the disc golfers together before approaching the Alpharetta folks.

Agree with your suggestion of not trying to get this done here on the boards. Too easy for cynics to snipe without really getting involved.

Will post updates and meeting notices here, but that's about it. If anyone wants to get involved and influence the outcome, please show up at the meetings!

-ChrisF

[Ghostinthemachine]

I'd like to thank djester and mr.disc for proving my point on posting to this discussion board. I had several discussion with other disc golfers and there seems to be some agreement about several posters needing the moderator's attention for the betterment of this board. Anyway . . .

Good start, Chris!

Try to keep input limited to those players involved on a face to face basis. In other words, you need to attend the meeting to influence the activity.
Also, Jim Warner discovered the board was controlled by this older lady who was all about the horses.

Also, some players are communicating by email to avoid the discussion board and it's "input".

Excellent example of discussion board input proving pointless. Bag Tag Challenge vote to have 2 separate tags - Pro and AM. Result - 2 pro tag sold (BTW, I've followed the BTC and even participated one year, so I am familiar with the pros and cons of the issue and I really don't need anyone's input on this issue on this thread about Wills Park.)

Good luck!

[maximus]

Also, some players are communicating by email to avoid the discussion board and it's "input".

Have you looked close at your screen. There is a PM button there for you to give Chris advice privately so that you don't have to post it out for all to see. If we all used it more for person to person communication instead of posting to the board for everyone to read through, you would get less smart ass remarks.

Excellent example of discussion board input proving pointless. Bag Tag Challenge vote to have 2 separate tags - Pro and AM. Result - 2 pro tag sold (BTW, I've followed the BTC and even participated one year, so I am familiar with the pros and cons of the issue and I really don't need anyone's input on this issue on this thread about Wills Park.)
Good luck!

The decision to have two tags was made with lots of input including the people that showed for the final event, and ultimately was Wookie's decision, not "what did the poll say".



I know you didn't want a response to either of these things but since you posted on the public forum, that's my "input".

[jonp]

Excellent example of discussion board input proving pointless. Bag Tag Challenge vote to have 2 separate tags - Pro and AM.

http://www.discgolfatlanta.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1458
Which tag option do you want for 2009?

Option 1: One tag, cheap price, bragging rights only........19....61%
Option 2: Two tags like we have used the last 2 years......12....39%

Total votes : 31

[grease]

What the hell does that mean? Hey, stat boy, take your crap somewhere else
and then go read a comic book...oooooh graphic novel! If you can't handle this heat
go to the bathroom and poop some "I'm so scared of Grease I can't sleep at night".
Then you'll feel better.

[Ghostinthemachine]

Also, some players are communicating by email to avoid the discussion board and it's "input".

Have you looked close at your screen. There is a PM button there for you to give Chris advice privately so that you don't have to post it out for all to see. If we all used it more for person to person communication instead of posting to the board for everyone to read through, you would get less smart ass remarks.

Excellent example of discussion board input proving pointless. Bag Tag Challenge vote to have 2 separate tags - Pro and AM. Result - 2 pro tag sold (BTW, I've followed the BTC and even participated one year, so I am familiar with the pros and cons of the issue and I really don't need anyone's input on this issue on this thread about Wills Park.)
Good luck!

The decision to have two tags was made with lots of input including the people that showed for the final event, and ultimately was Wookie's decision, not "what did the poll say".



I know you didn't want a response to either of these things but since you posted on the public forum, that's my "input".

A. I posted publicly to show my support for Chris and my disappointment with this discussion board.
B. I was confident someone of questionable intelligence would prove my point regarding posting on this board yet again. Thank you, Mr. Moderator!
C. I'm aware of Wookie's choice to make the final decision. I spoke with him about it and he wanted to make the decision. I respect him for it.
D. Jon, the vote was pointless no matter how you run the stats.
E. Another fine example of a moderator attacking posters! Way to set a fine example. Can I be moderator, too.

[Ghostinthemachine]

Chris,

Can't find your PM? I guess taking your own advice wasn't the point.

Thanks for your contribution to improving Wills Park.

[joyaman]

GITM:

Sent you and the others who have responed a PM. No more chatter here until we've got the ball rolling and have something newsworthy to report.

[joyaman]

Winter Update:

A few folks have asked for an update on our progress at Wills. There has been some incremental progress since the last post, but things did slow down over Winter, as I've been getting a new business off the ground. That being said, here's a bullet list of what's transpired since last August:

Agreement reached on goals of project
Maps created depicting jogging trail and overlaps with current layout
Walking tours of proposed modifications conducted with both core DG group and Alpharetta Arboretum represenative - He supports our efforts and will provide endorsement to key city groups
Video of proposed changes produced
Map depicting proposed changes (including new holes next to current #11) produced
Next step is to pull together comprehensive presentation covering impovement costs, funding, labor, pictures of Alex and other neighboring courses as examples of how improvements (new baskets, permanent tees and signage) will enhance Wills.

Once the presentation is ready, we will present to the various city groups and work toward final approval. Please send a PM if you are interested in helping to pull the presentation together, as the available bandwidth to get this done is the current bottleneck.

[mrpbody33]

Sounds like a lot of good progress!

[Imran]

No offense to anyone, but I think a new Wills course may be a lost cause. There's just too much going on in that park, and the course crosses thru all of it. I'm not aware of any undeveloped land at Wills that is large enough for an 18 hole disc golf course. I could be wrong about that.

In better news, a new course in Alpharetta, I think, would be easier to accomplish. You wanna talk to Anna Brostrom (I hope I spelled that right). She is with the Alpharetta Convention and Visitors Bureau (ACVB). You've probably seen their logo on your Atlanta Open t-shirts. ...almost all of them. They have sponsored for a few years and work closely with the AO every year to help make the event better and better. I think I can speak for Rand, when I say that she is an invaluable parter to the AO. Anna's network of people stretches much farther than Alpharetta and into other North GA. cities. The AO has maintained a great relationship with ACVB, and she has asked the AO in the past on how Alpharetta could be a host site for an event like the AO. She is aware of Wills Park, but not sure if she knows the extent of traffic flowing thru there causing disruptions in disc golf play. So, that's where I would recommend you start. Ofcourse, after you get 5 guys and come with a cool name. Then call Rand to see if he can introduce you to Anna. Then ask Anna to introduce you to the Alpharetta Parks and Rec., and so on...

P.S. - She mentioned once that some city park had received hundreds of thousands of dollars of funding and they were looking to spend it somehow. This was a couple of years back when Rand and I met with her. We didn't really pursue the comment since we were knee deep in the tourney. I'm sure that money is long gone by now, but the point is that she is prevy to that type of information.

Good luck! Where there's a Wills, there's a way!

Let us know if the RDGC can help further.

[keith johnson]

We already have a core group of people working with the powers that be at Wills(and Arboretum people) as well as working with Anna for other opportunities in and out of Alpharetta arer with Rand and myself - She definately is a valuable asset, as she got me hooked up real well for the 5th Annual Forsyth County Open and has still offered to do more (which I'll take advantage of as it gets closer to event time).

There's more land there then you think, and it could support a good 18 hole course all in the woods away from people if we want to fully go that route.

[Woodrow]

Tunnell Spangler & Assoc. produced a master plan for the park renovations done several years ago which included incorporating all of the land along the creek for relocating the course. Apparently, the Parks Department ran out of funds to carry through with the final development, but the area should still be dedicated to that design since it's not suitable for much else. Worth looking into.

[keith johnson]

Read above post which already addressed that.

[Funky Bobby J]

Maybe there'd be some area in the woods for some holes or something and relocate a few of the baskets...

[Woodrow]

Read above post which already addressed that.

I don't see anywhere that a MASTER PLAN produced by Tunnell Spangler & Assoc. for the park renovations done several years ago which included incorporating all of the land along the creek for relocating the course was ever mentioned "above". I was only suggesting that since it does exist, that the parks & rec MIGHT be receptive to SOMEONE continuing the development based on the plan already in place. Now, if your point was to detract from the topic at hand and try to prove me an idiot, there will be plenty of opportunities for that, no doubt. But this time, it seems you're just blowing in the wind. Anyone else want to make any suggestions for KJ to crap on?

[Funky Bobby J]

Maybe there'd be some area in the woods for some holes or something and relocate a few of the baskets...

...because I think someone did something to look at land around Wills park with less traffic and could be dedicated to disc golf, but it might take some work and I am not sure there is money in the gov budget to mess with it...

[keith johnson]

Read above post which already addressed that.

I don't see anywhere that a MASTER PLAN produced by Tunnell Spangler & Assoc. for the park renovations done several years ago which included incorporating all of the land along the creek for relocating the course was ever mentioned "above". I was only suggesting that since it does exist, that the parks & rec MIGHT be receptive to SOMEONE continuing the development based on the plan already in place. Now, if your point was to detract from the topic at hand and try to prove me an idiot, there will be plenty of opportunities for that, no doubt. But this time, it seems you're just blowing in the wind. Anyone else want to make any suggestions for KJ to crap on?

Not crapping on you Woody - Just pointing out that I already said we were working with parks people and there's plenty of room in the woods (which follows along the creek) for a 18 hole course in my post (copied below)

I know you NEVER read what i write so I forgive you for making a big deal out of something that was already addressed and covered.

Any other helpful thoughts you wish to pass along?

Re: New Wills?
by keith johnson » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:27 pm

We already have a core group of people working with the powers that be at Wills(and Arboretum people) as well as working with Anna for other opportunities in and out of Alpharetta arer with Rand and myself - She definately is a valuable asset, as she got me hooked up real well for the 5th Annual Forsyth County Open and has still offered to do more (which I'll take advantage of as it gets closer to event time).
There's more land there then you think, and it could support a good 18 hole course all in the woods away from people if we want to fully go that route.

[Woodrow]

Big duh!
Of course I read that.
The woods exist; check.
There's room for 18 holes; check.
You're working with P&R; check.
The Master Plan exists; are they AWARE?
Were you AWARE?
Had it been MENTIONED?
Is it a FACTOR?
Does it MATTER?
So simple....
I could crap.

[keith johnson]

I'm pretty sure the park management is aware of the parks Master Plan, but since I have never asked them, next time we communicate I will ask them about what you have posted.

In all the years of dealing with P&R management, I never met ANYONE involved who didn't know the Master Plan like the back of their hand - I think at ERP even the front desk people that intern know about the Master Plan there.

[Funky Bobby J]

Maybe there'd be some area in the woods for some holes or something and relocate a few of the baskets...

...because I think someone did something to look at land around Wills park with less traffic and could be dedicated to disc golf, but it might take some work and I am not sure there is money in the gov budget to mess with it...

...but I think that parks usually have these plan thingies that kinda show what they are planning to do with parks in the future, maybe someone could take a look at that and see if maybe we could squeeze a hole or two in the big wooded section... Maybe even see if there is like a big club of disc golfers that might could help do something and organize like an event deal or two where they come and do stuff to help the park since there is not too much money...

[Imran]

I think at ERP even the front desk people that intern know about the Master Plan there.

Don't think too much. It puts you in lala land most of the time.

[keith johnson]

Maybe there'd be some area in the woods for some holes or something and relocate a few of the baskets...

...because I think someone did something to look at land around Wills park with less traffic and could be dedicated to disc golf, but it might take some work and I am not sure there is money in the gov budget to mess with it...

...but I think that parks usually have these plan thingies that kinda show what they are planning to do with parks in the future, maybe someone could take a look at that and see if maybe we could squeeze a hole or two in the big wooded section... Maybe even see if there is like a big club of disc golfers that might could help do something and organize like an event deal or two where they come and do stuff to help the park since there is not too much money...

[keith johnson]

I think at ERP even the front desk people that intern know about the Master Plan there.

Don't think too much. It puts you in lala land most of the time.

Go away until you know what you are talking about please. Quoting me out of context without the smiley face that was in the post to make it look like something it is not is really childish - and I thought you were above that nonsense when talking about real things.

[keith johnson]

The reason that the group has been doing things behind the scenes - is exactly because of everyone talking about stuff when they have NO IDEA about what is really going on.

Whn things are closer to coming to fruition, more can be explained - right now we are involved to the point that is allowed.

[Funky Bobby J]

I heard that one disc golfer has been killed because he found out "too much" about the plan... Let's hope for everyone's sake no other disc golfer probes into this underworld too deeply...

[keith johnson]

I heard that one disc golfer has been killed because he found out "too much" about the plan... Let's hope for everyone's sake no other disc golfer probes into this underworld too deeply...

I told them I could tell them, but then I'd have to kill them, and they still wanted to know.

Hopefully that will be a lesson to others.

[joyaman]

See "Wills Park Tee Boxes" thread for latest developments....

[waruss]

Are there any maps of the new Wills course layout?

[keith johnson]

All info about the changes at Wills are here:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2830

[Redan Randy]

I am interested in hearing some of the old school Wills guy's(Bootsie, Renzs', etc.) opinions on the new Wills.

[Funky Bobby J]

I heard that they all said it was much better than Cats...they'll go back to see it again and again...

[keith johnson]

Someone has stolen the Mach 3 (Old hole 10) that was removed from Wills Park between THU DEC 9th and SAT DEC 11th which was to be used at the next course going in at another Alpharetta Park in 2011.

The basket belongs to the city of Alpharetta, and they have offered (with my asking) to let whoever has stolen it to return it with NO QUESTIONS asked before this Friday DEC 17th at 5PM. After that time a police report will be filed and the person responsible will be charged with the crime.

If anyone in the disc golf community has any information on the basket, you may PM, Email, or call me. It is a basket that is over 6 years old, but in very good shape and someone in the area has to know that if someone has a "new" Mach 3 they just got - that it most likely is the basket from Wills Park.

It is a shame that with all the good will Disc Golfers had created with the redisgn, bridge work and all the other work done on the course in the last 3 months - that someone decides to steal the basket and ruin the reputation of disc golfers with one selfish act.

PLEASE keep your eyes open and if you see the basket or know who has it, do the right thing and bring it back before Friday, so the city will not derail the other project due to this unfortunate incident.

Thanks for any help,

Keith

[Phoenix]

With all this great news someone just has to derail the continued efforts to improve disc golf in this area. I hope whomever this may be will please return it.

[Funky Bobby J]

Do you guys have a new map or rough verbal description of the new layout? I am thinking of having a go during the holidays.

[Bootsie]

redan randy i have to say that the changes to the course are well done. i give keith props for the design, and i'm sure he knew he had his reputation on the line, so he mad sure that it would please the willsdogs and really no one else. which he accomplished. it definitely has my stamp of approval. go check it out.

[joyaman]

FBJ: We've updated the Map, GPS, Scorecard link here on the Wills thread:

http://www.discgolfatlanta.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1165

Send a PM if you want to play a walkthrough round. Many folks were out today to check out the course. Enjoy! -ChrisF

Do you guys have a new map or rough verbal description of the new layout? I am thinking of having a go during the holidays.

[Woodrow]

hEY Chris, is this close?

[TokioJason]

New wills is great. I love the pads and the new baskets give it a real nice look. I think almost all the woods holes are right favored though. I still had fun and would most certainly come back again and again.

[joyaman]

Yes. I had the same Google maps image as Layer 1 of my temp map, but decided to hide it on the posted image to keep the background simple and monochromatic. Everything should line up exactly with your image, as that's where the hole lines were originally plotted from.

Keep in mind that a full-color, simplified graphic map of the course and of each individual hole is being prepared from the underlying/hidden layers used on this temp map, so the final course map will also lineup exactly with these images. If you'd like, I'll post a Google Maps version of the final map online, but for the Kiosk Map and hole signs it will look more like the USDGC and Carolina Clash caddie books, with simplified color graphics to isolate the essential hole elements (trees, tees, hills, etc...). Thanks for noticing. -ChrisF

hEY Chris, is this close?

[keith johnson]

New wills is great. I love the pads and the new baskets give it a real nice look. I think almost all the woods holes are right favored though. I still had fun and would most certainly come back again and again.

Two of the 4 are lefty friendly 1st and 2nd have both sides equally represented, but the 3rd and especially the 4th hole had to be more righty to keep players from throwing at the other side of the creek for the most part. You'll just have to work on your turnover, like I have to do for 1,2,9R,15, 16, and 18.

6 holes lefty friendly, 2 holes righty friendly, and 10 holes good from either hand - I don't want to hear any whining mister.

[Redan Randy]

redan randy i have to say that the changes to the course are well done. i give keith props for the design, and i'm sure he knew he had his reputation on the line, so he mad sure that it would please the willsdogs and really no one else. which he accomplished. it definitely has my stamp of approval. go check it out.

Now that the Blessing has been made, i can't wait to get up there! Way to go Keith!!

[Lewis]

I just played the new layout today on my lunch break. It's definitely a major improvement! Applause to Keith and all those who added their labor to this project. I'll have to go back and update my review on Disc Golf Course Review. It deserves at least another star.

[VERMIN]

I played the new layout today and really enjoyed it. Thanks to everyone that helped out to make the new updated version of Wills happen. The concrete tee pads rock

Head to the Open House and check it out: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3059

[keith johnson]

Thanks to everyone who came out for the OPEN HOUSE - over 120 people came through during the day (about 20-30 non disc golfers) including about 30-40 that were there for the first time or hadn't been in over 5 years.

We gave plaques to the City Recreation and Parks Department, Alpharetta Visitor and Convention Bureau (accepted by David Cox of the Natural Resource Committee),
Craig Dickerson of Decksource.com and Metro Building Products. We also have one for Eagle Scout Bobby Cookson that we'll give to him when he is available.

There were pictures taken by Wade Cauthen from Earth Visions Photography of the awards presentation as well as of the principal players involved in the course changes coming about.
As soon as he sends me the link I will post them here.
There was also a story in the Alpharetta paper about the Open House, and there will be follow up stories both in the paper and online about today's festivities.

Everyone loved the outstanding cold food appetizers (Monster Shrimp, pizza, rum cake, homemade potato salad, and veggies) as well as the food (Chicken and Hangar steak) cooked by Moose - all of which was donated by Jeff Gomez from Anis to go along with burgers and dogs that were slipped inside some gourmet rolls and buns also donated by Anis to keep everyone well fed before or after their round of golf.

The course and new tee signs were well received and were enjoyed by several people in the neighborhood including a couple who came out to see the sport for the first time and they ended up playing a few holes and followed some other groups around while learning about the sport.
There was also photos taken of them and others as well as an interview with Chris Foley and myself which will appear online at Patch.com soon.

Thanks again to everyone involved and thanks to a great start to the new year weather wise and Disc Golf wise to make today a success!

Keith

[brad]

just played Wills Park for the first time and got my first ace of the year on hole # 11, nice course

[Dale H]

I played Wills on 1/9 for the first time in years. It is vastly improved and now a favorite. For those of you who haven't played there in a while it is worth the trip. Thanks for all the hard work that Wills usual suspects and Keith put in on the course -- it really shows.

Dale

[JPZ]

Finally got out Sun. to play the redesign...........the course is better than B4..................... But, I'll be @ ERP next time I'm in the area.
No offence to everyone involved. It's just sooooooooo crowded @ wills w/ way 2 many people who have NO IDEA whats going on!
Granted it was 70 degrees, sunny and the weekend.
But, then again - thats when we want to go to play 2, eh?
at least 5 groups started on random holes, always right in front of us.
1 group let us play through, even tho they started driving while we were on our way to the tee, then threw in on us while we were putting.
The family of 4 w/ aerobie rings that jumped in front seemed to be enjoying themselves.
They even started laughing when when 1 of them , POPS I believe, hit a guy who was putting out.
Probably not his fault tho! who knew that thing would fly 100ft from the middle of the fairway

[keith johnson]

it''s funny to hear that you won't play because it's crowded with golfers - instead of it's impossible to play because of the pedestrians as it was in the past.

All you had to do was read my post about how it was on SAT while I was there all day working on the course and you would have known not to come out if disc golfers playing disc golf bothers you.

[JPZ]

I should have been more specific
I hate disc golfers!
and crowded parks ...including but not limited to pedestrians

The redesign is good KJ. granted some fairways were hard for me to find, but what else is new!

Maybe if we started a rumor that some pervert was molesting dogs and old people, we could cut down on some traffic

[grease]

I played there Sunday and there's still a problem with people walking from the horse barns down the steps in front of hole 7. I guess you can't kill stupidity. I suggest next time you play there, just walk through the middle of the horse ring like you have no clue what's going on. Or better yet, walk through the middle of a football or baseball game. When asked what the hell you're doing, explain that they do it to the disc golf course, so why can't you disrupt their activity.

[keith johnson]

I played there Sunday and there's still a problem with people walking from the horse barns down the steps in front of hole 7. I guess you can't kill stupidity. I suggest next time you play there, just walk through the middle of the horse ring like you have no clue what's going on. Or better yet, walk through the middle of a football or baseball game. When asked what the hell you're doing, explain that they do it to the disc golf course, so why can't you disrupt their activity.

There will be a sign there sometime in the future that will be like the one by Hole 15 (old 10) but with the additional wording to please look left before preceding down stairs. It was also part of the reason for moving the basket for 3 (old 17) into the walking area - so that it's CLEARY visible that disc golf is there. It won't stop all the cross traffic, but it beats the hell out of the alternative which is no course. In the future the only way to avoid that issue would be to eliminate holes on that side and just have all 18 be on the side from where 9 (old 8 ) is - thereby avoiding all other activities and long walks between holes.

I've already got 6 more holes on that side in case they want to expand to 24 or if we need to go with the above description - either way Disc Golf will work out and be a part of Wills Park for the next 30+ years.

[djester]

[Here4Beer]

I played there Sunday and there's still a problem with people walking from the horse barns down the steps in front of hole 7. I guess you can't kill stupidity. I suggest next time you play there, just walk through the middle of the horse ring like you have no clue what's going on. Or better yet, walk through the middle of a football or baseball game. When asked what the hell you're doing, explain that they do it to the disc golf course, so why can't you disrupt their activity.

Another Viewpoint
Let's Recalibrate. Less than 1% of the population has even heard of disc golf. Even less know what that funky looking basket with chains is for. Nearly 100% of the population know what to do when confronted with a staircase w/ handrails. Not a lot of public parks have disc golf. Even fewer have equestrian facilities. But here's the rub - ALL the sports at Wills, EXCEPT DG, have dedicated areas. DG uses the PUBLIC areas of the park. That will never change, unless they decide to eliminate DG which would be bad, very bad.

The sign will help but it would be especially effective if discgolfers would exercise courtesy and respect in these situations. Apologize for any close calls (apologize like a mad man if you actually hit somebody - R.I.P. J.D. Salinger). Explain, in a friendly manner, that they have wandered into the flight path or fairway of the DG course. IMO, the horse people could become our allies as both activities are "fringe" sports in the minds of the public.

But what do I know, I'm an idiot...

[Lewis]

I have had a couple of encounters in recent months with the horse people grazing or cooling off their horses in the grass on the fairway of #6 (old #4), and they've always been very friendly and pleasant to me. We can certainly coexist happily with them if not make them our allies, but the difference between success or failure in that relationship will be how nice we are to them at the start of every encounter. If we end up causing problems for them, or develop an adversarial relationship with them (God help us if somebody hits a horse with a disc and it or its handler gets injured) the disc golfers are going to lose that fight for one simple reason: money. If there's one thing the equestrians have on the rest of the sports at Wills, it's money, and I would be amazed if they aren't a significant source of revenue for Wills Park.

Let's build trust instead of undermining it, and always remember that honey is more effective than vinegar!

[Funky Bobby J]

I have had a couple of encounters in recent months with the horse people grazing or cooling off their horses in the grass on the fairway of #6 (old #4), and they've always been very friendly and pleasant to me. We can certainly coexist happily with them if not make them our allies, but the difference between success or failure in that relationship will be how nice we are to them at the start of every encounter. If we end up causing problems for them, or develop an adversarial relationship with them (God help us if somebody hits a horse with a disc and it or its handler gets injured) the disc golfers are going to lose that fight for one simple reason: money. If there's one thing the equestrians have on the rest of the sports at Wills, it's money, and I would be amazed if they aren't a significant source of revenue for Wills Park.

Let's build trust instead of undermining it, and always remember that honey is more effective than vinegar!

Did you lay up instead of going for the deuce?

[Wookie]

Honey is not as effictive on salads than vinegar but it is better to mix with butter.

[Lewis]

Did you lay up instead of going for the deuce?

Zing!

[Bootsie]

There's only 3 original holes that have been left since the very begining. Its funny reading the begining posts on here 2 years ago. People, understand what that means in my words of wisdom about SUPER 6. For those who don't know its old hole 4 more then 100 feet behind where the teepad is now on top of the street going up towards the bath rooms. The hole is a part of Wills. Keith for crying out lout its now hole 6. SUPER 6. where have i heard that before??

[Can't Hit Open Putts]

There's only 3 original holes that have been left since the very begining.

Really #6 (0ld #4) is the only original pin and pad placement left thats the same shot. #18's (old #12) pad and pin have been moved back enough over time that original shot has been altered, and #3 (old #17) while its pin is in the same spot, the original pad was about 50ft further up (its definitely an original "pro" hole). Loved the super 6 hole along with some of the other "invented holes" the Wills dogs came up with. Did you ever play Backwards Wills?

[Bootsie]

correct me if I'm wrong, but since I've been playing there holes 2 and 15 have remained the same as well. Although I have heard that even hole 15's teepad is slightly different.

[keith johnson]

There's only 3 original holes that have been left since the very begining.

Really #6 (0ld #4) is the only original pin and pad placement left thats the same shot. #18's (old #12) pad and pin have been moved back enough over time that original shot has been altered, and #3 (old #17) while its pin is in the same spot, the original pad was about 50ft further up (its definitely an original "pro" hole). Loved the super 6 hole along with some of the other "invented holes" the Wills dogs came up with. Did you ever play Backwards Wills?

What you talking about Willis? - that basket was moved 25 feet back and even with the bridge to make up for the concrete teepad being forward 25 feet.

Since the 2005 course version - only (NEW HOLE NUMBERS) Hole 2 (short pin moved 1 foot right - tee in same spot), Hole 6 (moved only 6 feet right -tee in same spot), Hole 16 (moved less than 1 foot - tee in same spot), Hole 18 (moved 1 foot right -tee in same spot) are the only 4 to stay where they were in theory and since I personally dug every new hole and removed every old basket, I'm pretty damn sure I know where they were.

[Can't Hit Open Putts]

I guess I remembered wrong about #3, but I'm still right about #6! Forgot all about #16. #18's original pad was up 20ft and the basket was about even with the tree. I don't know how long its been by the bushes, but its been awhile. The pad was forced back due to erosion continuously over the years. #2's original pad was up further up but abandoned due to erosion also. So as I see it, the only two "original holes" are #'s 6 and 16. Thanks for your hard work Keith!

[Redan Randy]

Several weeks ago i took a Friday off and drove up and played two rounds on the new layout. There was some non-golf traffic but not enough to be a problem. I liked the holes, but i am a short drive player. I can see Pro's thinking the course is too short overall. I liked it though and think you have made good use of that land. Another thing i liked was when we came to the end of the second round and it was dark, 18's illuminated fairway helped us finish that round. I don't know how many rounds at Redan i have played hole 18 in the dark and shuled away a decent round. Anyway, great job, and i am looking forward to playing it again Saturday!!

[Bootsie]

when I said 15 what I really meant was hole 16, but I'm sure you smart people on here figured that out. As for hole 2, I dont think the pad was ever in front of where it is now because that would have meant people on the teepad of old 14 could be hit with discs flying in from where the original teepad for old hole 13 was when the ball field was there. I'm pretty sure there are only 3 original holes left from the 80's. Craig your right about hole old 12 was moved back. Not sure about the erosion thing, I just think Wills dogs thought it would be a cooler hole.

[Lewis]

Wasn't #4 (old 18) shortened a good 30-50'? To my memory the basket was moved closer to the teepad, and then the new concrete pad was installed a few feet forward of the mudpad where the old marker was. I'm definitely not complaining, but when Keith says "the basket was moved back" I though I had remembered it was previously a longer hole.

[keith johnson]

Wasn't #4 (old 18) shortened a good 30-50'? To my memory the basket was moved closer to the teepad, and then the new concrete pad was installed a few feet forward of the mudpad where the old marker was. I'm definitely not complaining, but when Keith says "the basket was moved back" I though I had remembered it was previously a longer hole.

You didn't see what I highlighted in RED Lewis -that is the hole that I talked about the basket moving back on.

Hole 4 (old 18 ) the basket and tee pad have both moved so yes it is shorter, actually 38 feet shorter.

[Can't Hit Open Putts]

Old #14's pad did come in conflict with #13, that and all the roots to trip over made it an interesting hole to tee from. Old #12' original tee was being eroded on both front and back before they redid the asphalt path. For further edification, old #18's pin was originally next to the trees on the left near the path.

[keith johnson]

Remember in my post above I mention from 2005 as that's when I moved here, I have NO idea of the layout before that time frame - but since that time the course did NOT change until the redesign.

I do hope that the redesign kept some of the flavor of the "old Wills" as that was part of what I tried to do within the parameters given to me by the city and city engineers.

Keith

[Lewis]

You didn't see what I highlighted in RED Lewis -that is the hole that I talked about the basket moving back on. Hole 4 (old 18 ) the basket and tee pad have both moved so yes it is shorter, actually 38 feet shorter.

Ah yes, that makes me feel better. I didn't think I was that crazy. Now if I can just figure out how to put together two good rounds instead of one, I might stand a chance at a tournament.

[keith johnson]

With an hour of anger and a handsaw after doubles at Central, Courtney's Alley was created on Hole 13 between 5PM and 6PM this afternoon.

Hopefully she will come out again sometime soon and let me know what she thinks!

Keith

[Lewis]

That adds some interest to the hole. Not sure if I could hit it with any regularity, but it gives the lefties a better look.

[keith johnson]

SSA Stats from 1st Event at Wills Park since redesign. Par 55 layout with Hole 13 long.

Hole 14 stats (the only Par 4) - and the one most people whined about before even playing it.
Open Pro Men - round 1 - 3.82, round 2 - 3.55, 3.68 overall
Open Pro Women - round 1 - 4.33, round 2 - 5.00 , 4.67 overall
Pro Masters - round 1 - 4.00, round 2 - 3.57, 3.79 overall
All ADV divisions - round 1 - 4.53, round 2 - 3.85, 4.19 overall
All INT divisions - round 1 - 4.69, round 2 - 4.50, 4.59 overall
ALL PLAYERS - 4.18 Overall

Event Stats show that INT and ADV divisions played almost identical from 1 round to next, PRO Masters are the only division to learn and improve from 1 round to next, Pro Open Men played over 4 shots WORSE from round 1 to 2 and overall they beat the old guys average by only 1 stroke.

Open Pro Men Round 1 49.11
Open Pro Men Round 2 53.47
Open Pro Men Average 51.27

Open Pro Women Round 1 57.01
Open Pro Women Round 2 58.32
Open Pro Women Average 57.68

Pro Masters Round 1 52.99
Pro Masters Round 2 51.70
Pro Masters Average 52.37

All PROS Average - 53.77

All ADV Divisions Round 1 55.69
All ADV Divisions Round 2 55.85
All ADV Divisions Average 55.77

All INT Divisions Round 1 58.52
All INT Divisions Round 2 58.46
All INT Divisions Average 58.48

[Bootsie]

hole 14 is a tough par 3. and hole 2 in the long is a par 4. tried throwing for craps sake and not so easy. keith i just wanted you and everyone on here to know that your one sexy caveman. and yes i have had a couple drinks

[djester]

ya "poofer" !

[joyaman]

Come on out to Dogfest on April 23rd and we'll see if the new, all-long layout at Wills (including a long flagged tee on #17 with mando) can reek some havoc on everyone's cards. It'll be interesting to compare these scores with GSS #1.

Signup now open at:

http://www.pdgasignup.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1298478615

-ChrisF

[richardhead]

My kids and I played "New" Wills for the first time yesterday afternoon. The wind was howling, but I had a fun time. There were several holes that stood out to me (2,11,12,14,18). I really liked the holes in the back (after 9). Ended up shooting a -7 in the wind, which isn't terrible. I can see killing that course on a calm day. Had a spit out on #11 for an Ace.